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Anngrogan 02/09/2011 4:47:00 PM
City-employed physicians might not earn overtime -- neither did I as a former State attorney who put in an excessive number of hours when it came to trial-time -- but let's look at the SFPD and Fire Dept. Surely some or most officers do an important job for the public that needs adequate pay, but why do high-level command structure SFPD officers earn overtime to begin with? Or premium pay? Or why do fire department officers earn overtime to teach those fun NERT classes, valuable as the information is to us? They are executives, for Pete's sake, not even on the streets protecting us from the thugs and fires. And it's not a piddly amount of overtime they earn, either.
How many folks know the amount of overtime earned by the two SFPD command level officers who were demoted last fall for inadequate supervision and response to the imepending crime lab scandal, plus the one high level officer involved who retired rather than face demotion (according to circumstantial evidence) Those three executives alone (of about 1900 total SFPD officers) earned overtime (not counting salaries) that would pay 2/3 of the entire $300,000 annual cost to taxpayers for the police commission and 1.5 SFPD command level officers to administering 29 officers from the San Francisco Patrol Special Police (incidentally, why does it take 1.5 officers to 'administer' 29 officers?). Add in 'other' pay plus overtime and that covers the entire Patrol Specials annual program cost -- yet the police commission has taken under consideration an absurd Boston report (costing taxpayers yet another $50,000) that recommends that these valuable neighborhood -- privately-paid -- police "cost the City too much"? Private businesses and residents and street festivals pay the Patrol Special's hourly rates amounting to only 1/3 the rates charged by off-duty (tired?) SFPD officers who compete for private policing jobs -- (and both are 'regulated' by the police commission and administered by high level command SFPD officers? Isn't that like the fox guarding the chicken house?). In 1996 the City Budget Analyst published a report one can read today, that said that even so, the taxpayer pays more because the SFPD still loses money. The Analysis called for future audits, but of course, none has ever been done to learn today's facts. Why isn't the wasteful SFPD off-duty policing program abandoned entirely, and some of that wasted taxpayer money diverted into contracts with the Specials for effective, crime-preventing policing on MUNI, in the library and in other city agencies and services? Did you know that 2/3 of the SFPD (officers and employees) earn over $100,000 each per Supervisor Mirkarimi in August, 2010, and that the starting pay for police officers if over $82,000?
The point is not that government workers now pay into their pension funds -- hooray for them -- the point is that private sector folks have been hurting substantially for over three years of this recession while government workers are only just now feeling a small pinch -- and government workers still have both union protection and civil service status protection. Why not do away with public unions as a start, and make it easier to demand proof of results, then fire incompetent government workers, an almost impossible task. I know, because I used to try to discipline or fire errant and ineffective State workers as a former State Attorney, and it was well nigh impossible 25 years ago. I doubt that much has changed.
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Jack Jacob62 02/05/2011 8:31:00 PM
Finally, we are taking a look at this tremendously bloated public employee pay out. It maddens me to even think about the pension, yet alone the "premiums" that we in the private sector will be paying well into our old age! This absolutely is disgusting. Once more of our public gets wind of this, no other educated self-respecting citizens will ever want work in SF.
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David 02/02/2011 8:30:00 PM
Mr. Jamison, it might be a good idea to know what you are talking about efore you put pen to paper. The licenses are not a requirement for the job. Only licenses taht are not a requirement for the job qualifies you to get this premium pay. Instead of attacking hard working people for doing jobs that many in the private sector didn't want. How about talking about all the money the City is giving away to non-profits. They come to the trough, and ask for more money each year. Much more than any other city does. Why do you think the homeless are flocking here. In addition talk about the give backs in salaries that City workers have agreed for the last three years to in order to balance the budget.
DC
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02/02/2011 6:11:00 AM
PS: City-employed physicians don't earn overtime, ever. A weekend on call can bring the total hours worked in a week above 100--at a price of $9 an hour for the whole weekend. That's a bargain for the City. If the taxpayers want to stop paying doctors for overnight call, that's fine, but know that the City would no longer be able to bill Medicare or MediCal for office visits, because one of the conditions for payment is that there be after-hours on-call coverage.
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02/02/2011 6:02:00 AM
As a physician I got $9 an hour when I was on call after hours. That is defined as "premium pay," but in fact it's less than minimum wage. Yes, it was part of my job, but since when is paying city employees for time worked considered "money for nothing?" I'm supposed to be up all night taking call (it didn't always happen that way, but sometimes it did), for free?
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SFinSF 01/31/2011 1:49:00 AM
It is natural for you to defend your pay as a SF firefighter. And I applaud the efforts you all make in doing your job. That does not justify out-sized pay for a job that, despite all your listings, requires relatively little background. I am a professional engineer, arguably every bit as valuable to our economy and society, and had to receive vastly more training than what you list.
Lastly, you inadvertently counter your own argument with this:
"a college degree is desirable. Though not required, it is hard to get hired on a city if you do not have one because of the competition."
Do you know why the competition is so tough? Because of all the arguments the author stated at the outset. If the wages for a *fully qualified" fire-fighter free floated with the market, it would be demonstrably lower. It is as basic as supply and demand, and you say it yourself.
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SFinSF 01/31/2011 1:34:00 AM
You have an incorrect view of how pay should be determined. I am as liberal and progressive as anyone in SF, but I don't believe anyone should be paid a six-figure salary because it is expensive here. They should be paid what they're worth in the job market. And $110K is way above that figure.
Open SF's jobs to the general, qualified public, and you would find millions applying -- and for far lower rates. You give no explanation of why I and all other taxpayers in SF should either pay you to keep your "head above water" or enable you to buy a home in the most irrationally-priced real estate market in the U.S. (why can't you rent? that costs about $25K per year).
The average public worker should be compensated the same as the average non-public worker doing similar work. They are not. Not by a long shot. And compensation is a mixture of gross pay, bonuses, benefits (current and future), and degree of job security. By this measure SF municipal workers are paid two to three times what their private colleagues make.
The budget will not allow this waste to continue. Given that their is a fixed pie, your argument says that workers should continue to be paid on the backs of all the social services the city provides, because that is the only place where the money is going to come from.
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ikso 01/29/2011 1:20:00 AM
From Calpers study "Preparing for Tomorrow" 2008:
Here are the CalPERS life expectancy data for miscellaneous members:
>>If the current age is 55, the retiree is expected to live to be 81.4 if male, and 85 if female.
>>If the current age is 60, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82 if male, and 85.5 if female.
>>If the current age is 65, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82.9 if male, and 86.1 if female.
Here is the CalPERS life expectancy data for public safety members (police and fire, which are grouped together by the pension fund):
>>If the current age is 55, the retiree is expected to live to be 81.4 if male, and 85 if female.
>>If the current age is 60, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82 if male, and 85.5 if female.
>>If the current age is 65, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82.9 if male, and 86.1 if female.
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Atbyard83 01/28/2011 9:55:00 PM
Just goes to show that the Unions have been running SF for a very, very long time. Now the cash cow is dead and the meat needs to be divided. Who is going to get the steaks and who is going to get the hamburger, and who will get the tail?
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Miguelito 01/28/2011 9:10:00 AM
$110K is about enough to just get by in the Bay Area....to keep your head above water....and little else. You'd have great difficulty purchasing a residence of any kind unless you had a huge down payment. Labor-Management relations go in many directions on many issues. The FAA had a premium pay for air traffic controllers called "Controller Incentive Pay," which they arbitrarily took away from the air traffic controllers but allowed it to remain in effect for Supervisors many of whom never worked, nor had they been qualified to work, as an air traffic controller for many years. Public employees need unions. They work for ruthless, mean spirited employers.
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TT 01/28/2011 3:07:00 AM
First, site the study please. Because this would be news to any of us. I hope you dont mean the much higher injury rate after retirement from being a fire fighter. Or exposure to hazardous chemicals. Or the stress of seeing someone lose a loved one time and time again. Or the fact that the stuff you see on late night movies has no reality of seeing, or smelling or feeling it up close while a family member pleads to save their son. Or the fact that while you sleep at night we dont. Right?
Your numbers are from what city? Or are you just spitting out political numbers that have no bearing on SF's pension system in hopes that you look smart? Not really working. Please site the cities firefighter unfunded portion to be fair please. We had nothing to do with Enron thank goodness. Sounds like you need to do some more research my friend.
I love our job and the people we help. However, it is too bad there are so many misinformed people about such things like the empty points you brought up. And when you talk about a union my friend, review your history. It is unions that gave us our wages that all of us enjoy today. Look it up.
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TT 01/28/2011 2:58:00 AM
Just showing up for work for some people means doing the ditry jobs that you don't want too. Read and study the facts that have been posted. Once again, they get a smaller increase in pay than any other department in the nation for driving an engine. Its a promotion everywhere else except in SF fire. Their responsibilty is much more than an average firefighter. Do your research and you will find that they are saving the city money not hurting them. Oh, I forgot to mention that they don't earn overtime their first 10 hours of an overtime shift like every other firefighter in the nation. Man these guys are really sticking it to the city by not accepting a pay increase they deserve, not getting paid overtime for the entire 24 hour shift and not taking pay raises that the city signed but, the firefighters gave back. DO YOU RESEARCH AND STOP BEING SO BLIND.
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Offkey 01/28/2011 12:01:00 AM
Of course, we agree that we all want well trained intelligent people running our public services, and no one is asking them to do it for Free. If you are reading the same article I'm reading, it's about being fair and balanced.
I worked in the private sector for 30 years, business owner for 5 years, and for past 5 years I have been working in the public sector while raising a family. No, I am not going to retire with a pension, all along the way in I met people who worked very hard and those that hardly worked.
Most deserve good and fair compensation, but definitely not at the expense of everyone else well-being. And remember everyone including the best and the brightest can and will all be replaced, eventually by someone who is even better.
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01/27/2011 11:51:00 PM
what does every man-jill get? I would venture to guess, jack.
which way are you rowing, M?
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01/27/2011 11:46:00 PM
SF Weekly positioning itself as populist is a joke.
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RBorBust 01/27/2011 7:34:00 PM
Well how about...
1) Paying themselves 30.4% more than other big city firefighters:
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/09/study_--_sf_cops_earn_264more.php
2) Or the fact that firefighters, in accordance with Prop H 2002, are supposed to increase their pension contributions EVERY YEAR to defray escalating pension costs and haven't increased them at all in five years plus years...
Or, should I go on??
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ikso 01/27/2011 7:00:00 PM
Well, tough to respond when you are already going to the "life expectancy" canard. Firefighters live no less longer than anyone else according to Calpers' own studies.
By "benefits," I am not talking about the small potatoes. I am talking about the real money, the 90% at 55 stuff...You should ask yourself why the City is going bankrupt; $1.8 billion in underfunded pensions (and this # is based on Enron pension accouting) and $4.5 billion in underfunded retiree health care...
To be clear, when I wrote "firefighters," I should be writing "firefighter's union" as it is not the individual firefighters who are driving this colossal mess...
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RBorBust 01/27/2011 6:50:00 PM
How about paying themselves 30.4% more than firefighters from other large CA cities - according to the City's own survey- for starters?
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/09/study_--_sf_cops_earn_264more.php
Let me repeat- looting...
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EquityM 01/27/2011 6:23:00 PM
Guest is correct in saying that night and weekend pay differential is not a bonus.
It is strictly legitimate.
Firefighter labor leaders enjoy bringing in legitimate points that others possess in order to cloud and cover up the ridiculous bonus payments that our firefighters receive each year amounting to $21 million divided by 1600 firefighters. By the way, that works out to over $13,000 a year for every man-jack in the SFFD. All for just showing up to work.
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Weneedtoread 01/27/2011 6:18:00 PM
First, I don't know any of these people and am currently unemployed--but why have we been so hard on public servants like Andrew Clark, an engineer in his 50's who's probably been working in public service most of his life, makes about 80k without overtime (I'm assuming, but tell me if I'm wrong) and works with POOP. I know engineers in their 30's working for oil companies, making four times that--who don't work with POOP.
I want our govenment to have intelligent, well trained people running public services. But do you expect them to do it for FREE. I'm not saying there haven't been abuses, but paying well trained employees a decent/competative salary is the best way to ensure that things don't go wrong--which costs a lot more to fix than prevent in the first place.
So, think about this: how do private and public sector pays compare? How do bonuses and pension plans compare? How do the quality of employees for these sectors compare? I'm really curious about that.
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Guest 01/27/2011 5:47:00 PM
Oh by the way all nurses.. private hospital or public health get a extra money for working the night shift... as to many other people who work those terrible hours. It is not a bonus.
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TT 01/27/2011 3:30:00 PM
There are several huge differences in the two. First, the state firefighters are more than likely kids going to college or in there late teens to early twenties. These guys are great and serve a vital service in the summer. They have about 1-2 weeks of formal training and then are shipped off to their stations in the state. They run, depending on where their station is, typically 0 -2 calls a day. Most of them being medicals and wild fires. They are not trained in any other facet of the job with the exception of more rigorous physical training because of the hills they often have to climb as you have seen on the TV.
San Francisco and other city firefighters, like me, go through an academy that is approximately 4-5 months. This coupled with the fact that you had to have an EMT/ Paramedic Certificate to get hired, a Firefighter 1 and 2 certification, and a college degree is desirable. Though not required, it is hard to get hired on a city if you do not have one because of the competition. Then, you are trained in specific skills that fit either your stations needs or the departments. For example, San Francisco has a surf rescue need, obviously. The fire department does not pay you to take this class. You have to go on your own time. Not many other departments do it like that. SF also has a hazardous materials need. These classes are unpaid leave, total 240 hours and cost around $3500. Out of pocket from firefighters that want to get the training.
The paramedic program alone is about 40 hours, depending on how well you study, a week of unpaid time for at least a year straight.
Not to mention all the other events that firefighters do out of the kindness of their hearts. Not because they are getting paid, but because they believe in the communities they work in. In my department we have a volunteer pool in which we give time to local schools and charities. I don't see many private sector businesses doing that.
It just shocks me that people really don't know the facts and are willing to prosecute anything they see, read or hear about without checking the facts. I try not to judge people unless I have walked in their shoes because of the job I'm in maybe. But, I think it goes beyond that. If we truly want to be an informed bunch of citizens or just croonies that follow whatever our leaders tell us.
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TT 01/27/2011 3:11:00 PM
Exactly how are the firefighters looting the city? Fact check please. Inform me.
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TT 01/27/2011 3:10:00 PM
Sad. Did you ask how this fireman got his home? Probably not. Because you want to complain about the guys that you thought were below you and found out are not. Your comment wreaks of a class system that used to exist back when the British empire reigned. Some guys like that actually risk their lives so that you can sit in your computer room and write these nice comments. But, screw them. As long as they can't have better homes than us or live where we do, its just fine.
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TT 01/27/2011 3:02:00 PM
Get better benefits? Hum. Lets see paid vacations to "company retreats", meals for free on "business dinners and lunches", bonuses that match my benefit package entirely and oh yeah the ability to say whatever I want and not get punished or days off. Wow! Sounds totally right. Oh I forgot, in my job I am 18.4 times more likely to get an associated muscular deficiency than any private sector worker. Oh I forgot that I am also less likely to reach the age of 70 than private sector workers. Oh, and the city, not the firefighters, got us into this mess. Or, wait, I'm sorry. It was the private sector. I have an acquaintance who was laid off from AIG, given a six month compensation package, collected unemployment, and 1 month after he was "laid Off" moved to another division of AIG or company owned by them and started receiving more pay. I here about this all the time. So please, save us all the trouble of making yourself look like a fool before you start calling someone else one. Firefighters, paid for everything in those stations except the work computers. That right know it all. Pots, plates, couches, chairs, food they eat, the Christmas lights you see up there in December, beds. You name it, they paid for it. So when you sling comments, you had better not act like a politician and have no facts to back them up. Because you really do look like a fool.
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Seej 01/27/2011 7:29:00 AM
Mr. Jamison,
You shoud have responded to TT with two basic facts:
1) As SF Weekly has already reported and per the City's own study, SF firefighters are paid 30% more than other firefighters from comparable, large CA cities - in a word, absurd.
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/2010/09/study_--_sf_cops_earn_264more.php
2) The average total compensation of a City firefighter is $157,000 per year and this will go up again big next fiscal year- in a word, absurd.
All this would be fine if our City were not going bankrupt with ENORMOUS unfunded benefit liabilities. Really tired of seeing people defend the indefensible...
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silly me 01/27/2011 5:20:00 AM
last I knew word processing premium was 91 cents and hour and paid only for verifiable word processing hours........so one pay period you might get as much as $18.00 and the next almost $6.00 no way did any clerk get the premium for every hour they worked. Bad enough at there is an attempt to balance the budget on the backs of those at the lowest pay scale by lay offs, freezes and no increase in pay but to drag them into the fray is dispicable.
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silly me 01/27/2011 5:09:00 AM
Word processing premium pay came about because many clerical positions did not require, or employ the skills needed word processing. Those who could do word processing were then paid on a par with private employment. The City avoided an across the board pay raise in this manner. Just as every clerical position is not required to take dictation. Those taking dictation are paid accordingly. Keep in mind you are talking about clerks and the word processing premium was not given across the board or to those hired after it became a norm to possess that ability.
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01/27/2011 4:12:00 AM
Money to burn and fools to give them more.
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ikso 01/27/2011 1:02:00 AM
Firefighters have gone from last decade's heroes to this decade's thieves and this spokesperson, Mr. O'Connor, seems to pride himself on being a pathological liar. There is a reason the City is going bankrupt.
And we all love the often quoted - public sectors workers make about the same as private sector workers but public sector workers just get better benefits- as if said benefits don't COST A FORTUNE and are bankrupting our City...
Kudos to SF WEEKLY for caring and digging deep and exposing the widespread corruption in CIty employee compensation starting with the "Let It Bleed Piece"...
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01/27/2011 12:35:00 AM
Dear TT,
You have a fair point regarding the potential cost savings to a city department from paying a premium in lieu of establishing a more advanced rank. In the section discussing firefighter premiums, I wrote that firefighters’ union president Tom O’Connor “says that by paying a premium, the fire department avoids having to establish a separate, higher-paid rank” for firefighters, and quote him stating “it's funny that they criticize it, because probably nine times out of ten they came up with the premium.” O’Connor was discussing the EMT premium, but the observation could just as well apply to the engine drivers’ premium — the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, for example, pays engine drivers a maximum wage that is 14 percent greater than the maximum paid to journeyman firefighters.
But drawing such comparisons can get us into tricky territory. What are the differences between working as a firefighter for the state and working in San Francisco? Or San Francisco and the “small towns” you mention? This story focuses on the evolution of and logic behind premium payments in San Francisco, and I believe your argument — while not specifically raised regarding engine drivers’ pay — is represented in it.
Regards,
Peter Jamison
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SFReno_911 01/27/2011 12:22:00 AM
don't get me started me 44 and best financial year I ever had was 103 k as a small businessperson in income b4 taxes, and I had to generate a few million in sales to do that and work MY ASS OFF!!..I COULD NEVER afford to buy a home in SF..same age Fireman I know in the city owns a home in N Beach..how Because he is a Fireman with 20 years in and makes about 200+K a year w overtime etc..what a joke..as a public servant he makes more than the CFO of a 7 million dollar a year Printing/Graphics Company?? The City and the Unions are a Joke and "break" the Bank every year..
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RBorBust 01/26/2011 10:52:00 PM
Yes- firefighters and the rest of them continue to loot the city treasury while our City falls apart at the seams and most City employees don't even live in the City... and residents/taxpayers just take it like docile sheep...
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TT 01/26/2011 10:48:00 PM
True
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Realitycheck 01/26/2011 10:47:00 PM
All this Premium Pay for the Fire Department is being rubber stamped for the next 4 years, even as we speak. On July 1st there will be a NEW MOU good until 2014 with all the OLD Premium Pay largesse, boiler plated into the language.
It perhaps is the only labor negotiating table where both parties sit on one side and merely divy up with what they can get away with.
They are, afterall, all members of the same club: i.e. "S.F. City employees."
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TT 01/26/2011 10:45:00 PM
I applaud your effort in this story. Sadly it is so poorly researched that I had to write this to help you out. SF firefighters do get 6% premium pay for driving the engines, that is true. Do you know what the average pay increase for other firefighters is in other cities for driving an engine? 23% for driving.They call them engineers because it is a promotion in every other city fire department in the entire country and world for that matter. Why? Because it carries more responsibility. The lowest percentage increase is 11% that I can find in research. These are the small towns that run 35 calls in a year. SF firefighters run sometimes that many in a day and more. So are the firefighters saving the city $3.4 million now. No! You won't say that because everyone wants to point at somebody else for the financial debacle we are in currently. Not to mention that by not having another rank above firefighter, the city is saving money by not having a promotional civil service exam. How much is that in savings? Yes, they get paid good. No doubt. But, lets be realistic on all fronts shall we. Oh, and by the way, in the private sector its called a bonus. And I don't see anyone running to give that up. I can tell you my friends bonuses in the private sector are surely more than 6%. And yes, it is for doing the job that they signed up for in the first place. Do a little research and let us know what you think. Are they really costing the city money or saving them money? I believe if everyone picked five random cities to see the percentage difference between firefighter and engineers we might all see that they are not costing the city money. If anything, the city is costing them money.
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01/26/2011 10:03:00 PM
How about a new "premium": you get qualified to do your job on your own time and your own dime, or you get fired....
